"Oldboy"

[Stewball]

OK, I'm no Spike Lee fan, but the negative reaction to this smells. So it's a remake of a popular Korean film (with f*****g subtitles) so what? Apparently it's being treated as sacrilege. On it's own it's a reasonably good film. Halfway through, there is a sequence of martial arts action which I initially thought was totally stupid--because it is. Then it hit me, it's a send-up parody, and if it isn't, it serves that purpose anyway. How many Kung Fu films have we seen where the hero is assaulted by wave after wave of 10-1 odds or greater against him/her--and here nobody is armed with anything greater than some balsa wood 2x4s.

Discounting those scenes, the story is actually pretty good. Please deliver me from purists. 7/10

[ShogunRua]

OK, I'm no Spike Lee fan, but the negative reaction to this smells. So it's a remake of a popular Korean film (with f*****g subtitles) so what? Apparently it's being treated as sacrilege. On it's own it's a reasonably good film. Halfway through, there is a sequence of martial arts action which I initially thought was totally stupid--because it is. Then it hit me, it's a send-up parody, and if it isn't, it serves that purpose anyway. How many Kung Fu films have we seen where the hero is assaulted by wave after wave of 10-1 odds or greater against him/her--and here nobody is armed with anything greater than some balsa wood 2x4s.

Discounting those scenes, the story is actually pretty good. Please deliver me from purists. 7/10

Hate to tell you, but films aren't made in a vacuum.

If you remake a great film and make it 20% worse, yes, it might still be a good film in a vacuum.

However, people will still inevitably compare it to the original and note that not only it fail to match its predecessor, or do anything different with the story, but was actually worse. In that case, what the hell is the point of watching the remake? Watch the original instead.

That's the downside of remakes, and I see no reason in complaining about it, or why it's unreasonable.

[Stewball]

Hate to tell you, but films aren't made in a vacuum.

If you remake a great film and make it 20% worse, yes, it might still be a good film in a vacuum.

However, people will still inevitably compare it to the original and note that not only it fail to match its predecessor, or do anything different with the story, but was actually worse. In that case, what the hell is the point of watching the remake? Watch the original instead.

That's the downside of remakes, and I see no reason in complaining about it, or why it's unreasonable.

Not to disagree, I haven't seen the (subtitled ) original (have you seen this one), but how is it worse? The more I think about it, the more I'm sure the much needed parody in this one is intentional, it almost has to be it's so blatantly bad during that segment, which probably upset a lot of fans of the genre. Did the original use a similar theme to it's climax, [spoiler]unintentional incest[/spoiler], which I think probably turned a lot of people off as well, to this one at least?

For me, remaking an original movie that was in a foreign language that severly limited it from any kind of wide distribution here, nullifies the issue of making it in a vacuum.

[ShogunRua]

Hate to tell you, but films aren't made in a vacuum.

If you remake a great film and make it 20% worse, yes, it might still be a good film in a vacuum.

However, people will still inevitably compare it to the original and note that not only it fail to match its predecessor, or do anything different with the story, but was actually worse. In that case, what the hell is the point of watching the remake? Watch the original instead.

That's the downside of remakes, and I see no reason in complaining about it, or why it's unreasonable.

Not to disagree, I haven't seen the (subtitled ) original (have you seen this one), but how is it worse?

Stewie, you wondered aloud in your initial post why people are bashing Oldboy. I gave you a likely reason.

I can't tell you whether that reason is valid, since I have only watched the original. Just like you can't either, since you have only watched the remake.

For me, remaking an original movie that was in a foreign language that severly limited it from any kind of wide distribution here, nullifies the issue of making it in a vacuum.

Stewie, not everyone is the same as you.

"Oldboy" happens to be one of the most popular foreign films of all time, its director Chan-Woo Park is a living legend, and I have known dozens of people that have seen the original, subtitles and all, despite having virtually no interest in Asian cinema.

[Stewball]

Stewie, not everyone is the same as you.

More's the pity. But all I was implying is that, in this case I'm in the vast majority of people who haven't seen a given foreign language film out here in the anti-subtitles hinterland. It's neither pro nor con either movie until we have an objective comparison by someone who's seen both. I'd volunteer but I'm sure I'd be wasting my money and virtual ink.

"Oldboy" happens to be one of the most popular foreign films of all time, its director Chan-Woo Park is a living legend, and I have known dozens of people that have seen the original, subtitles and all, despite having virtually no interest in Asian cinema.

You gotta admit, even without seeing the new one, that Asian martial arts scenes are long overdue for an overhaul.

[ShogunRua]

Stewie, not everyone is the same as you.

More's the pity. But all I was implying is that, in this case I'm in the vast majority of people who haven't seen a given foreign language film out here in the anti-subtitles hinterland. It's neither pro nor con either movie until we have an objective comparison by someone who's seen both.

An "objective comparison" between a remake and its original? How do you intend to accomplish that?

You gotta admit, even without seeing the new one, that Asian martial arts scenes are long overdue for an overhaul.

If you knew anything at all about "Asian martial arts scenes" (which Korean cinema in general and Chan-Woo Park's films in particular have absolutely nothing to do with), you would know that there has been a lot of new, fresh, and exciting stuff going on during the last five years.

[Stewball]

You gotta admit, even without seeing the new one, that Asian martial arts scenes are long overdue for an overhaul.

If you knew anything at all about "Asian martial arts scenes" (which Korean cinema in general and Chan-Woo Park's films in particular have absolutely nothing to do with), you would know that there has been a lot of new, fresh, and exciting stuff going on during the last five years.

So you're saying there has been an overhaul in the last five years then, which would exclude Park's original 2003 version, btw. I'm not really a fan of the genre because I've been turned off by most of what I've seen for so many years because I think is fanciful and/or phoney. But if there is a renaissance of sorts going on, I'd like to see for myself. Could you recommend one that's available on line, preferably in English of course, but if not, well.....action speaks louder than words.

[ShogunRua]

You gotta admit, even without seeing the new one, that Asian martial arts scenes are long overdue for an overhaul.

If you knew anything at all about "Asian martial arts scenes" (which Korean cinema in general and Chan-Woo Park's films in particular have absolutely nothing to do with), you would know that there has been a lot of new, fresh, and exciting stuff going on during the last five years.

So you're saying there has been an overhaul in the last five years then, which would exclude Park's original 2003 version, btw.

The original Oldboy is not a martial arts film in any way, shape, or form. It has as much to do with "martial arts" as The Counselor does.

I hope you were just needling me there.

I'm not really a fan of the genre because I've been turned off by most of what I've seen for so many years because I think is fanciful and/or phoney. But if there is a renaissance of sorts going on, I'd like to see for myself. Could you recommend one that's available on line, preferably in English of course, but if not, well.....action speaks louder than words.

While it's ten years ago, Ong-Bak (2003) was amazing and fresh for its time. More recently, Donnie Yen's Ip Man (2008) was a step forward in choreography and style.

[Stewball]

The original Oldboy is not a martial arts film in any way, shape, or form. It has as much to do with "martial arts" as The Counselor does.

I hope you were just needling me there.

No, there's a huge sequence in this new one (the parody I spoke of), so I assumed there must have been something similar in the original. And I thought your "fresh/new" comment was referring my martial arts comment since that was what it was in response to.

And this example is definitely m.a.

More recently, Donnie Yen's Ip Man (2008) was a step forward in choreography and style.

But I'll check it out.

[ShogunRua]

The original Oldboy is not a martial arts film in any way, shape, or form. It has as much to do with "martial arts" as The Counselor does.

I hope you were just needling me there.

No, there's a huge sequence in this new one (the parody I spoke of), so I assumed there must have been something similar in the original.

Yes, it's called an "action sequence". Most films have them. Doesn't necessarily make them "martial arts". Or did you think the Bourne flicks were "martial arts movies", too?