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Killing Them Softly
Killing Them Softly
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Killing Them Softly

Killing Them Softly

2012
Drama, Suspense/Thriller
1h 37m
Jackie Cogan is a professional enforcer who investigates a heist that went down during a mob-protected poker game. (imdb)

Killing Them Softly

2012
Drama, Suspense/Thriller
1h 37m
Your probable score
Avg Percentile 45.15% from 2033 total ratings

Ratings & Reviews

(2046)
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Rated 22 Oct 2012
74
85th
Continues Dominik's exploration of masculinity and the psycho-physical actuality of violence, but adds an interrogation of the decadence of industrial democracy: on the one hand, the thoroughly overdetermined (that is, predictable) plot indicates the systemic (if softly fatal) operation of contemporary capitalism; on the other hand, this is overlaid by human beings who drift in and out of the narrative, each testifying to their status as systemic losers. Representation of Australians: accurate.
Rated 16 May 2018
48
18th
I could spend this review pontificating on why I find it the worst sort of pretentious arthouse fare but I just sat and watched them do the same thing about current affairs with just as little insight as I've provided here. Instead I'll just note that it wasn't for me. I kind of hope it's not for you either, for your sake.
Rated 10 Dec 2012
4
70th
The political themes are occasionally quite obvious, but they distinguish and elevate what could otherwise have been a rather generic gritty crime film (albeit a very well-made one). The languid pace is pretty refreshing in its own way as well, making the world of these junkies and small-time hoods lived-in and appropriately mundane. Which isn't to say it's ever boring.
Rated 05 Dec 2012
80
77th
IT'S ABOUT CAPITALISM and James Gandolfini's penchant for hookers. The opening bit of this was astounding and if it kept up like that, easily best movie of the year but ALAS. They could've cut out Gandolfini entirely and you'd have no idea.
Rated 07 Jan 2013
68
48th
An artsy crime-movie. Good performances, a great soundtrack and at times dreamlike atmosphere. Still, there's not a lot hiding under the surface and once it's over it seems like preciously little has actually happened.
Rated 13 Dec 2012
60
50th
I'm on the fence. Andrew Dominik's direction style was a good deal too hip for my tastes and his film lacks incident and substance (unless one counts what Empire Magazine deems "clunky social commentary" and what Roger Ebert - rather wonderfully, I think - calls a "facile point"). Furthermore, I found that the quality of the dialogues varied. But 'Killing Them Softly' does have some things going for it, namely a few quite intense scenes and, crucially, some colorful performances.
Rated 06 May 2015
59
33rd
There is a stunning, viscerally engaging and powerful opening title sequence, and then nothing in the film even remotely adds up to the expectation of that montage. To have a political message is all well and good, but there was no grander logic to its presentation, and it was fanatically overstated, so it comes off as not only forced but pretentious to boot. For a film with its title it was speaking rather loudly.
Rated 23 Jun 2013
54
59th
Minus 27 points for putting all that effort into providing the viewer with a killer soundtrack and NOT featuring the song "Killing Me Softly."
Rated 17 Dec 2012
49
10th
Poorly updated version of The Friends of Eddie Coyle (complete with a 70s vibe, even though it's set in 2008). This is NOT a Hollywood crime film, so much as a preachy, social-commentary (with attempts at stylish filmmaking) about how the 99% are getting screwed; how money matters more than people. The last speech is among the best examples of when a filmmaker unnecessarily spells out the "message" of the film. (psi: 69)
Rated 15 Dec 2012
8
78th
(2nd viewing) Likely bound to polarize its audience, 'Killing Them Softly' should inspire nothing but genuine enthusiasm among ardent filmgoers. From the excellent use of sound, deliberate pace or superb soundtrack, every choice is a testament to Dominik's carefully thought-out direction. Characters are admirably underplayed and the film's bursts of unflinching violence proves impactful in its realistic depiction. Repeat viewings recommended.
Rated 12 Dec 2012
64
18th
A movie where James Gandolfini and Ray Liotta are old timers who just don't have it anymore in a society "less about the relationships & hard work and all about the money". There's no love and respect anymore. This movie reminded me that I'd love to watch Miller's Crossing again. Or No Country for Old Men. It seems the Coens handle this material much better! I liked the performances, and I liked the message of the film - but the execution was poorly done and not one I'd like to revisit.
Rated 07 Dec 2012
55
52nd
I thought Jackie Cogan was a fantastic character, especially his closing monologue, and I really enjoyed the music choices. However, I thought the political commentary came across as heavy-handed, ineffective, and incohesive. Overall, a step down from The Assassination of Jesse James, although I'm still interested to see what Andrew Dominik does in the future.
Rated 05 Dec 2012
95
95th
Nothing subtle about it, but Killing Them Softly is a pointed commentary about the American brand of capitalism. The lack of subtlety isn't a hindrance, the film still works great as a mob or political movie. Pitt plays a "fixer", and Gandolfini is great as the chewed-up-and-spit-out older version of this type of character. The last 10 minutes are particularly sharp.
Rated 01 Dec 2012
82
80th
Pitt spits fire and Andrew Dominik, once again, shows that dialogue can be stylish all the same. The gorgeous cinematography and superb cast head a fairly stagnant narrative, turning this film into something pretty great. Good things are yet to come with Dominik.
Rated 24 Sep 2012
85
67th
Brutal, intense, and stylish, Killing Them Softly is home to fantastic structural flourishes, an assured and gripping narrative, and some of the finest performances of the year.
Rated 08 Nov 2017
86
92nd
It may take place in 2008, but "Killing Them Softly" is based off of a 70's book, and it has a 70's sensibility. That's why it has more in common with "Serpico" than it does "Training Day," but this anachronism isn't trite or trivial, it's the very essence of the movie. I'm a lover of gritty crime movies, and this delivers. If you don't care for criminals with a heart of gold and you don't want to see them struggle to make the right choices, but just shoot people in the face, then check it out.
Rated 29 Oct 2017
80
69th
I think it's the pacing that gets people. This movie has weird fucking pacing. I ended up vibing to its wavelength, but I can see how you wouldn't. It strikes me as the kind of movie that will be revered as a stone-cold classic in a few decades.
Rated 11 Aug 2014
100
99th
Maybe I'm a sick man, but this is all I ever need or want from movies. Make 'em just like this, and keep 'em coming.
Rated 30 May 2014
81
43rd
Does Brad Pitt kill them "softly"? Hardly!
Rated 27 May 2014
80
78th
A caustic and deeply cynical contemplative crime thriller that gets its pessimistic message across in a forcefully effective and brutal fashion. Brad Pitt and James Gandolfini do good work and the soundwork/soundtrack is impeccable.
Rated 08 Dec 2013
6
41st
Killing Them Softly is a film I had highly anticipated and I love Andrew Dominiks previous work. And I really wanted to love this also. But it's nothing ground breaking. There are elements of brilliance. The cinematography is stunning as expected. Pitt is at the top of his game and I enjoyed Gandolfini, Jenkins & Mendelsohn also. But Liotta lacks the screen presence he once had. The films downfall is it's script that rambles on too much for its own good and every scene just feels overwritten.
Rated 04 Nov 2013
60
43rd
This film just felt kind of amateurish to me. Nowhere near as good as The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford. I really didn't appreciate being beaten over the head with the political comparisons. The music choices felt gimmicky. It is saved in no small part by the actors, with James Gandolfini being especially brilliant. It has an okay story, and ends up being a decent enough film, but not much of it goes anywhere and I'm sure I won't remember much about it in a few months.
Rated 27 Sep 2013
80
76th
Surprisingly political, though the movie deftly dodges partisan lines by serving up exactly what every American seems to want: swift, bloody vengeance against Wall Street. While the parallels between the bail-out and the poker heist don't always quite line up, the movie leaves you plenty to stew on beyond its superbly-acted crime story. Pitt, Jenkins, Gandolfini & Mendelsohn shine, but McNairy is a revelation. The abruptness of the ending only adds extra punch to an already excellent monologue.
Rated 07 Jul 2013
4
63rd
A beautifully shot crime thriller with stand-out performances from its cast, but ultimately hollow; there's a strong political undercurrent as well, but it comes off as tacky and out-of-place at times. Gandolfini's performance alone makes it a worth seeing film.
Rated 29 Mar 2013
66
51st
An ultra slick gangster flick with with not so subtle political undertones. A superb cast helps hold this slow burn together long enough to make it worthwhile. Mendelsohn and McNairy were excellent.
Rated 20 Mar 2013
82
68th
The political message was forced, but that's about my only complaint here. The direction is assured and stylish, the dialog is naturalistic, and the story and characters are interesting. A solid, entertaining, slightly offbeat crime drama.
Rated 08 Jan 2013
68
82nd
Sooo, Brad Pitt is Hank Paulson? Which makes Ray Liotta...Lehman Brothers? FRONTLINE should do a special on this movie.
Rated 02 Jan 2013
83
72nd
For a film that doesn't get overtly political it makes no bones about being everything but. The film is constantly contrasting the real world economic crisis with the troubles of crime syndicates, both on the personal level and the group level, and it handles things quite well. It's also a rather fun film even if you ignore those overtones, simply as a hard nosed tale of dramatic comeuppance and killing.
Rated 20 Dec 2012
69
73rd
The political message becomes tiresome rather soon until a perfect sledge-hammer of an ending. Mendehlson and McNairy are more annoying than good but Gandolfini. Jenkins and certainly Pitt saves the day.
Rated 11 Dec 2012
8
84th
Anybody calling this "blunt", "heavy-handed", "clunky" or "obvious" is simply not getting it. At all.
Rated 08 Dec 2012
78
46th
I don't know about this one. It starts on an off-kilter note, with a pair of sleazes robbing an illegal poker game. After a while Brad Pitt shows up as a hitman assigned to resolve the situation. Meanwhile, the 2008 election is happening. A pretty simple thriller until the last minute or so, when it tries for full-on political allegory--and falls on its face. Great direction, good acting (James Gandolfini all but steals the show in just two scenes), but those final moments simply do not work.
Rated 06 Dec 2012
80
89th
Andrew Dominik hits another nail on the head, this time from a completely different approach with a modern adaption of the wildly bizarre Cogan's Trade. Every character but Cogan is a mess and the plot chugs along as predicted, highlighting each character's self-implosions. The cast is up and down terrific and Dominik never fails to deliver a visceral punch with every sound or frame.
Rated 02 Dec 2012
72
59th
I don't think there was a bad performance around, it was nicely shot, and the story (while nothing new) was decent. But at the end of it, there really isn't a lot that's memorable about the movie.
Rated 02 Dec 2012
84
83rd
The political commentary feels just glued on except in the end. Otherwise stellar directing, writing, acting and sound editing.
Rated 04 Nov 2012
100
90th
A really cool, dialog-heavy, well shot and well cast film. Excellently gripping despite the general standstill of the narrative progression.
Rated 10 Oct 2012
70
41st
A meandering film with a pretty predictable and boring story, 'Killing Them Softly' is comparable to 'Pulp Fiction' in that it relies on the strength of its individual scenes, which are wonderfully and stylishly executed, from writing to acting, to direction of the smallest details. The cast all give superb performances, and, although the film is quite slow, you're never bored. The commentary it tries to make seemed a little forced.
Rated 10 Oct 2012
70
63rd
Heavy-handed and showily directed, but with nice performances and dialogue, plus the showy parts are mostly pretty cool. On first viewing, I don't think it is especially good or overly interesting in its commentary, but it's different and stylish and dumb people seem to hate it, which is usually a good sign.
Rated 13 Apr 2024
72
59th
Meh story, great everything else.
Rated 26 Jan 2024
70
26th
Nice sound effects. Lots of good actors. Pretty good.
Rated 12 Sep 2023
50
13th
This film wants you to know that ... get this ... CRIME IS A METAPHOR FOR THE CORRUPTION OF THE AMERICAN SYSTEM!!! It wants you to know this SO BADLY that EVERY second scene has a news report about the financial crisis going on in the background. In case you still don't get it, Brad Pitt says it out loud at the end of the film. What a profound statement. If only 2 out of every 5 crime films didn't have EXACTLY THIS THEME.
Rated 22 Oct 2022
32
9th
It has some moments of style; too bad it's mostly just middlebrow, monotonous talking.
Rated 02 May 2022
75
79th
Worth seeing if only (but not exclusively) for the perfection of Gandolfini's story arch, as an over the hill, obscene but teddybearish (i.e Gandolfini) assassin that never gets to the actual work because he's stuck ranting and drinking in his hotel room.
Rated 08 Jul 2021
80
60th
Pitt, McNairy, Gandolfini and Liotta give incredible performances, with Pitt possibly becoming one of the best movie assassins out there! He's cold and calculated, no nonsense and direct, but also very fair, honest and accountable. I also love stories about the aftermath of a crime gone wrong, and this one delivers some great introspection not just on crime, but on the ideas of community, professionalism, and ethics.
Rated 03 Aug 2020
75
28th
The ending monologue is truer than ever and I liked some of the subtle points in the movie... Or maybe not so subtle. Otherwise some very skillful shooting and scenery and it put a lot of hope in Dominik for any future films he might be directing. Some actor synergy just didn't feel right and could've been a more fitting cast. Pitt and Gandolfini are great as always. It is raw and brutal when it needs to be. Also, "America is not a country, America is a business".
Rated 03 Aug 2020
78
53rd
There's supposed to be some overarching political metaphor here, but it's a little too convoluted and it really kinda falls apart under the barest of critical scrutiny. But there's still plenty here to stand on its own right. This feels a bit like early Tarantino with a pinch more realism, vaguely reminscent of Good Time, but nowhere near as frantic. The motifs of Reservoir Dogs with Hateful Eight's ceaseless dialog (minus the racism) and legitimately funny moments. Decent crime dramedy overall.
Rated 12 Jun 2020
58
14th
Killing Them Softly boast a few good contemplative conversations thanks to Pitt, Gandolfini and Jenkins, and Pitt's closing monologue was great; however, the film remains a largely dull affair that drags throughout its runtime with unsympathetic characters.
Rated 02 May 2020
48
36th
Seen: 2. Too impersonal, slow, and fails to satisfy.
Rated 22 Apr 2020
95
84th
Also, didn't hear of this one. Excellent crime drama, and I love that it had a shorter running time. They don't have to be 2 1/2 to 3 hours long.
Rated 08 Apr 2020
80
73rd
Uncommon wavelength. Good ending.
Rated 02 Apr 2020
72
34th
Pete Davidson should take roles like this more often, but who told Ben Mendelsohn that accent was a good idea? It was annoying that in every kill the shooter unloaded every bullet in the magazine despite them being point blank headshots
Rated 17 Mar 2018
83
61st
Some of the things in here are quite on the spot...... """America is a business"""...
Rated 14 Dec 2017
40
15th
More reviews here : http://movie-freak.be
Rated 24 May 2016
60
6th
useless
Rated 26 Oct 2015
68
76th
Remarkably effective re-working of some tired old themes.
Rated 11 Oct 2015
85
50th
A great bit of gangster fun
Rated 09 Aug 2015
69
23rd
Lacking. It brings an adequately stuffed story but it's not really about anything that matters or is interesting. The only thing that IS worth watching and definitely at that, are the last 5 minutes of the film youtube.com/watch?v=5zK-b0INu1k which don't spoil much if anything & I really recommend you watch them now regardless of anything, don't bother with the rest tho, just a waste of time.
Rated 15 Jul 2015
60
72nd
After giving up on this ten minutes in, finally sitting through the whole thing revealed it to be a much better watch than had originally appeared. The story's nothing new but Dominick's writing/directing keeps you invested, something vital in a slow-burning character piece like this (although the overt political parallels could've been left out). Pitt and Gandolfini are good, but ultimately the latter's role is pointless. Which you could argue is something to be said about the whole production.
Rated 09 Jun 2015
4
74th
A gritty crime film elevated by thematic density, clever but perhaps outspoken and on the nose. Oh well, it's still a unique and marvelously constructed film, thick with style and heavy with ideas. Brad Pitt is a fucking rock star.
Rated 07 Jun 2015
81
66th
A small story acting as a blunt microcosm for current day America and its cutthroat capitalism -- I can't give the film too many points for connecting these two together, but it is a fine gangster film that (unlike most gangster films since Goodfellas) takes things slowly and evolves sequences when it has to, to great effect. Though Pitt and Jenkins are hardly bothered to make themselves audible, the best acting comes from Mendelsohn and McNairy.
Rated 24 Oct 2014
60
44th
Obama was in the movie so much I thought he was gonna be apart of the cast section in the credits.
Rated 20 Jul 2014
78
50th
shame that the political references feel so forced ... otherwise first class in every regard.
Rated 12 Jul 2014
60
48th
The pod-scum milieu is evocatively realised; these characters are trash, plain and simple. Their desperation is palpable: they are like mice scrambling for a crumbled piece of mouldy old cheese. But while it's well made, it's ultimately crippled by its built in redundancy; the characters or their actions are not interesting enough to sustain the momentum of a film anchored by a blatantly transparent social critique. The sheer gall of the enterprise, however, is certainly commendable.
Rated 28 Jun 2014
3
73rd
Scorestino-esque bailout drama that's slick and funny enough to forgive a couple of gimmicky sequences -and the enormous clunk.
Rated 06 May 2014
38
28th
Had potential, but in the end this is a mediocre film. Too much of the script is irrelevant & meandering nonsense. If not for the screen presence of Liotta and Gandolfini I would have slept through most of the running time. I like the idea of examining the dry, plodding bureaucracy of the mob. However the whole thing is way too slow. The political speech clips should have been cut out entirely. Overall the film is very low on content, and relies almost entirely on inane filler dialog.
Rated 20 Mar 2014
69
37th
68.500
Rated 05 Mar 2014
82
76th
Decent performance by Brad Pitt, but more so an enjoyable showing by James Gandolfini which reminds of the days when he played Tony Soprano. The story is well shaped and the action scenes are artwork.
Rated 24 Dec 2013
75
30th
beautifully shot. some great dialogue and performances. but had an unclear story and a thinly veiled theme. i found the film didn't know what it wanted to be. it went back and forth in visual style, tone and story, zigzagging between smart, fast-talking crime drama and bleak political study. it was difficult for me connect with the thematic message that "in america everyone's on their own because we're a business" because we only explored that theme in the context of crime, not universally.
Rated 20 Dec 2013
70
64th
7- recommended, good :: well-executed film that doesn't really have a central character. That's the exact sort of thing that seems to turn off some viewers, so keep that in mind.
Rated 16 Nov 2013
100
98th
An astonishing follow up to Jesse James. Dominik proves he as deft with his screenplays as he is with his directing, and each line of dialogue crackles out with immediacy. Gandolfini gives a heartbreaking performance as a man lost to another world.
Rated 10 Nov 2013
78
72nd
This is an interesting crime drama. The movie is well cast and is full of interesting and peculiar characters. The script also keeps things interesting for the entire film. I would recommend this film.
Rated 10 Nov 2013
79
71st
A brutal crime drama which is not-so-subtly a metaphor for the stock market crash of 2007. Great cast and some cool dream-like sequences.
Rated 18 Sep 2013
65
42nd
Although never achieving the subdued majesty of "Jesse James", Dominik nevertheless succeeds once again with this compelling crime thriller/not-too-subtle political allegory. Although this isn't riveting stuff (the plot, despite the political overtones, is standard-issue), Dominik's stylized visual style, the strong performances, the use of jolly pop songs to underscore horrific scenes (in the grand Scorsese tradition) and the obvious but still potent 'moral' suffice to make the film worthwhile.
Rated 02 Sep 2013
71
64th
The story itself isn't anything special and the conclusion feels like it comes from nowhere. Many have complained about the political overtones, and while I don't think it added much to the film, it also wasn't so overbearing as to be a problem. Otherwise, the characters were all well drawn, the dialogue was sharp, and it was stylish in the best kind of way. Definitely an enjoyable film.
Rated 23 Aug 2013
65
39th
It never really feels like the sum of its parts, which is a shame given the parts. I accept I just didn't get it, but give me more a hint please. Perfectly watchable, I just wish it was more.
Rated 06 Aug 2013
55
49th
Good film.
Rated 29 Jul 2013
82
38th
While the message of the movie isn't what I expected, Killing Them Softly may not have a lot of killing but the acting is fine as is the screenplay. Good Movie if not then at least decent. Pitt is good but I liked Mendelsohn and McNairy in their roles.
Rated 27 Jun 2013
88
91st
A tense, interesting and slick thriller. Great acting and some good ideas.
Rated 23 Jun 2013
70
27th
Sort of slow paced. It had interesting moments of Pulp Fiction style dialogue, but in the end I couldn't find any brilliant plot points. The things that you expect to happen happen.
Rated 21 Jun 2013
65
33rd
Well made and with good acting, but overall not very interesting. The plot and characters are quite boring, the pacing is slow and there is no real emotional connection. The political overtones throughout the film come off as forced and grow tiresome rather quickly. The little speech at the end was nice though, but it didn't justify the rest of the film. All in all a fairly mediocre and forgettable film.
Rated 03 Jun 2013
60
47th
I would have liked this a lot more if it was a lot better. 2/3 of the theater I was at walked out during it. Real numbers too (six people were in the theater).
Rated 27 May 2013
85
17th
The speech at the end is brilliant. America is just a business A great summary of how the wealthy get away with financial theft and the poor will die for it
Rated 18 May 2013
90
56th
Beautiful photography and nice performance by Pitt. I always like Liotta :)
Rated 07 May 2013
8
71st
Slow as dicks but with enough depth to make up for it.
Rated 22 Apr 2013
60
22nd
So far, the weirdest film of this year.
Rated 19 Apr 2013
69
51st
politics ruined an otherwise very good movie
Rated 17 Apr 2013
75
49th
A fun ride, but one that's compromised by the clunky insertion of political dialogue throughout. That said, the first twenty minutes or so do an excellent job of building tension, especially through the use of close-ups, tracking shots, and silence. The criminals in this film are deeply cynical, and while I'm sympathetic to some of the sentiments in the final speech, it seems dubious to make criminals the image of America.
Rated 15 Apr 2013
75
49th
Allright, you are cool Mr. Pitt
Rated 13 Apr 2013
62
22nd
it's definition of shallowness
Rated 13 Apr 2013
66
47th
Takes place in a dying Detroit, featuring characters that could be from a Guy Richie movie (complete with hypnotic rhythms of speech), except without much humor. Nothing seems to work in this movie. The environments are run down, the cars are old and boxy, the fixer's assistant is no help, deaths are messy, everyone is incompetent, the only money to be made is through theft, etc., etc. Provides a strong sense of atmosphere and some tense moments, but the political juxtaposition is a bit clumsy.
Rated 30 Mar 2013
60
31st
I'm quite certain I've watched this before a dozen times only done better. A mostly average film.
Rated 23 Mar 2013
78
50th
I loved the dialogue in this film. I also thought some of the action scenes were brilliantly violent and artistic. Especially when they played very slow happy music while it was going on. The worst part was that this movie didn't follow the plan it had set up. Brad Pitt says he likes to "Kill People Softly" from a distance, and yet he only kills one person like that. The other people he kills up close. He even kills a guy that he says he won't kill and they don't explain that well.
Rated 05 Mar 2013
65
41st
This movie would have scored much higher had it not been for the 2008 election speeches being played in parallel. One understands the parallel between the economic problem and movies story but after a point of time it because really annoying. The dialogues are good but the movie could have been fast paced. Overall a decent movie.
Rated 27 Feb 2013
60
26th
Plenty of style. Not much else. The political stuff felt very forced.
Rated 23 Feb 2013
1
3rd
comes across as a bit of a spineless, blockheaded tantrum... [Full review]
Rated 22 Feb 2013
85
82nd
This is a dark, tense, visceral, and eerily beautiful film.
Rated 31 Jan 2013
80
80th
Now who the fuck cares with subtlety when a film is so damn good? And what a way of ending a movie, let me tell you. Cogan is america, likes to kill softly, and Dominik is definitely a great american filmmaker.
Rated 26 Jan 2013
79
55th
Allot of conversations and I don't always get the message or the clue of those conversations. Sometimes it looks like random dialogues with allot of #!@* in it. The shots are beautiful like always and good camera work, but I found it sometimes boring.
Rated 25 Jan 2013
45
57th
Dwells too much on scenes less compelling, and it's obvious that writer/director Dominik got a bit touchy-feely and couldn't kill some of his overwritten lesser darlings; we get were you're going, no need to rubber-hammer it in. The good parts are really good though; not just performances from a strong cast, but also some well-shoot scenes and when the dialogue is more focused. *Preview*: #13#, exp-4*, hype, story, reviews, (director-writer Dominik/1), actors, R2.
Rated 24 Jan 2013
35
14th
the acting was the only awsome thing about this movie ........but honestly i was boered to death
Rated 21 Jan 2013
70
69th
Great and gripping imagery, strong cast, some scenes are flawlessly brutal and authentic...too bad its the in-betweens that really drag it down and seem somewhat pointless.

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